Links:
YouTube link: https://youtu.be/XkyNzJMjMMo
Official links: https://linktr.ee/Tellor
Summary: Oracles play such an integral role in blockchain infrastructure that Tellor CTO Nick Fett thinks they will be as important as Layer 1 solutions themselves.
Selina Peerbux: Hi everybody! Welcome back to the Global Defi Conference.
I hope you’ve all been having a great day; I know I have. There have been so many great talks and we have really good one next as well. We’ve got Nick Fett the CTO of Tellor, and he’s doing a talk all about why oracles are going to be as big as your Layer 1, but before I get Nick, I’ve just got a quick announcement. Big shout out to Pendulum one of our sponsors for this show. Pendulum is an open source blockchain, that aims to establish the missing link between Fiat and D5 ecosystems. A sophisticated, smart contract network. So, for those of you that were at our show yesterday David Schwartz from Ripple, he opened up the show with the talk all around automated market makers and this is essentially what Pendulum has done. They are building an automated market makers to introduce scalable liquidity pools for Fiat currencies and create yield earning opportunities for token holders. Now Pendulum are grate they’ve got their booths, so if you want to learn anything about them, then head over there, but don’t do it yet, because we have Nick right here. I’m going to bring him onto the stage now.
Nick Fett: Okay! Turn on.
Selina Peerbux: Hi! How are you?
Nick Fett: I’m doing great.
Selina Peerbux: Awesome to have you here. Super excited for this one. I’m going to jump straight backstage, but I’ll be back on later to do some questions.
Nick Fett: Cool! Looking forward to talking. All right thanks everyone for being here.
I’m super excited about this one as Selena said so. My name is Nick Fett. I’m the CTO of Tellor. Tellor as you guys can probably guess from the title, we are decentralised oracle protocol, but I’m probably going to talk about Tellor for like one slide. The bigger piece of this talk is going to be, I’m just going to go over kind of “What oracles are?” Kind of the current state of the space and how oracles are sort of going to enable the space to become more what’s sort of the outlook for kind of the Crypto space in general, and why kind of I’m excited to be in the oracle Technology and where I see it sort of connecting and making this whole thing actually makes sense. So yeah, let’s just get started. I don’t know how to answer questions or anything, but I’m still trying to figure this out. Anyway, all right! So first “What are oracles?.” So -I’m sure most of you guys are pretty familiar with smart contracts at the time at the moment, but they actually can’t read APIs. So just due to the fact that you have to be able to verify smart contracts anytime, so if you know I run an Ethereum smart contract today and you run it tomorrow, if it calls say the price of the Bitcoin on Coinbase via their API well it’s going to return different values and all the Byte codes aren’t going to verify. So, they actually can’t call API’s, you need somebody to input a specific number into the function at the time of running it. And that’s basically what an oracle is. Who gets to put in that function, since you can’t do it? Programmatically now (you know) as in our example, so let’s say we have a smart contract and we’re betting on the price of Bitcoin. We need somebody to input the price of Bitcoin. We could just have Selena do it. Very trustworthy, however that’s just one person, something can happen to her. She could (you know) maybe be held hostage. It could be a good thing. It’s very centralised. Another option for an oracle could be a multi-sig contract, so you could just have (you know) we could randomly pick three or (you know) maker. For instance, say for the longest time it was just 15 signers and a multi-sig and that’s your oracle. That works. Another thing that you can do is you can have said delegated proof of stake system, so you know you have people, who stake and then they’re allowed to vote on what the Bitcoin price is or what we should input. Basically, as you can tell it’s just any method for forming consensus around an input. How do we know when something’s input and that’s it’s kind of simple, but it’s as you guys know kind of forming these methods for consensus or sort of on-chain governance. In lot of ways, it’s very-very hard. So… Okay so what are oracles used for in the space?
The big thing at the moment that you guys (you) know even in my example the big thing is it’s just going to be price feeds. So, if you have a stable coin, if you collateralise something with ETH and you then (you) need am east US dollar feed to make a stable coin. So, most stable coins, most algorithmic stable coins have these. Also, any sort of derivative product, so betting on the price of the Bitcoin, betting on the price of Apple stock, this is mainly what a lot of these oracles are used for, but there’s a lot more. So, any sort of prediction markets: Who is the president of France? (You know) / What’s the weather in Zimbabwe? Anything … Those also use oracle soft chain information. Also, insurance, weather, crop insurance classic and (but) the last two are kind of what I want to focus on, because the first three are currently being done. We all know that (you know) D5 is going to be huge. This is the Global D5 Conference, but also there’s this multi-chain world, that, and that’s what we’re going to talk about a lot today.
So, oracles are used for bridges. Basically, if you have Bitcoin and you have Ethereum, the Bitcoin chain to the Ethereum might as well be the API on Coinbase. It is off chain. It is information that you are not privy to. So, you need an oracle to go and grab that information. So, any sort of cross chain AMM any other EVM other L1, these are all the things, that if you want to talk to them, you’re going to need an oracle.
So… It gets me to my next slide, which is kind of (you know): What’s the problem with all blockchain at the moment? … We all sort of know blockchains don’t scale so this is the classic scalability trilemma if you have. There’s three points you can either be decentralised or secure or fast. You cannot be all three. (You know) We all sort of realise that with all ones (you know) if somebody comes and they’re like: “Hey we’re the most decentralised chain out there, and we do 10 million transactions per second.” Everyone will just go like: “Yeah right, you are full of ***… (You know) We all know that they don’t scale it and the problem with this is that it sorts of led these fractions these different chains and that’s where we’re at now.
So, what are the solutions to blockchain scaling? (You know) The first two so you can have kind of sharding / computer science breakthroughs, so (you know) you could actually try and solve scaling. So (you know) we’ve obviously solved it a little bit in some ways, since Bitcoin, but those are rare. Those are really-really hard to do. The second one you can move within the trilemma, so you can make some trade-offs in, and this is usually where the different chains differ in a lot of ways. It’s where you make trade-off. A lot of times (you know) you’ll say: “Hey we’re going to take away some decentralisation” … (You know) This is like Solana, they if most people know , like if you just make block sizes really-really big, you can achieve a whole lot of scalability. Well… The problem is that now it’s impossible to run a node and verify your chain or (you know) you have the EOS model where it’s only (you know) a handful of data centres , which are your validators. That makes it really-really tough , like we all know that we can do that , but it’s not necessarily something new, it’s just sort of a trade-off and maybe that makes sense. But other things basically : “How do we scale?”… How we scaled Crypto so far … ( You know ) We’ve gotten people have always said like :” They haven’t scaled individually, but Crypto as a whole has. (you know) If you think (you know) Bitcoin did so many transactions, they still only do so many transactions, but Crypto as a whole is doing way-way more transactions, because we get new chains and this is an amazing thing and I see this is just continuing. ( You know ) Everyone likes to say like ( you know ) :” I put at the bottom like roll ups , and (you know) eventually we’re all going to be able to validate back to the larger chains.
But waiting on number 1 so waiting on these computer science breakthroughs to have (you know) one chain be able to validate everything… ( You know ) I’ve been in the space for quite a long time now and it’s , it usually just doesn’t happen. Things usually just keep kind of evolving slowly along the same line. So we’re gonna see new chains. We are gonna see some different assumptions along there and we’re just gonna figure out better ways to interact with them. Better ways to sort of move assets and (you know) whether it’s better wallet technology to make sure that “ oh you can interact” you know your Metamask connects now to Polygon and to Harmony into Arbitrome and you don’t even have to thin about it. And it’s great!
The next piece is how do we sort of move assets between these ? And that’s what I want to talk about here, which is oracles.
So first kind of what the are the problems with this distinct chain: “So if you have all of these multiple chains, like why do we really care and what do we need oracles to do in order to actually solve a problem ?.” The biggest piece is sort of fractured liquidity. So (you know) we’re at a deep conference, so I’m bringing it back. If you have AMMS on all the different chains , you’re gonna have , you would have liquidity on all of them. You would need to maintain liquidator and all of them and that makes it very difficult. You know this is the problem if basically with the centralised exchanges or for a lot of small coins if you (you know) you don’t have maybe you have 24 million Dollars of daily volume, but if (you know) like Tellor, like we (you know) our coin has (you know) millions and millions of Dollars worth of daily volume, but it’s across like 30 different exchanges, like if you actually wanted to go and trade 20 million Dollars in our coin , it would be like nearly impossible, and that’s it’s just fractured liquidity even though you have a whole bunch of daily volume it’s all over that place.
How can you sort of make all the chains, sort of talk to each other?. Another big problem and we’re starting to realise this so (you know) as you have these downs sort of pop up. Everybody is (you know) I’m not here to sort of sell you on DAOS, but you guys should really be pro DAO by this point. DAOS are going to be the future these sort of nationless companies, that can run anywhere and do anything tax-free. It’s super powerful. But how do you sort of govern across multiple chains, so (you know), if you have say vote on Ethereum bad it takes your token. Well the problem with that is : “Oh Man!” Like you have tokens, multiple different chains that’s really-really hard . How do you as everyone has to bridge them back… How does this work?. We don’t know.And the other thing it’s just kind of the complexity . So (you know) a lot of people, maybe some of you have been paying attention to like there was the wormhole hack. There’s been lots and lots of hacks and bridges because nobody really knows how they work. A lot of them are really centralised and then there’s a lot of problems too. That come once we really start moving to these different chains.(You know) “If I bridge a token from Ethereum to Polygon to Avalanche back to Ethereum is that the same token?” (You know) “Where’s the risk? How does it all unwind?; Does it all unwind?”.We don’t know, we don’t know the answer to that quite yet, and these are things that you don’t really want. All of these fractured chains, you want them to sort of be connected and have sort of the risk. The risk sort of transparent and siloed across them, so let me get into where I think the solution is. So what are the next big things and then I’ll get into how oracle solve these. The next big things in my mind : The first is obviously bridges that aren’t centralised. I think in a lot of ways we’re at that point , (you know) if you remember in like 2017 you had all of the EATH killers and it was basically just a bunch of people, who said they could do (you know) just like Ethereum, but like a thousand trans transactions per second and it was just everybody was super centralised. You would just move along the skeletability trilemma in a way that would just make completely centralised and that’s not scaling. (And) In the same way (you know) we want bridges that are live and functional now and the way that people do that is they you just centralise them. Like we know that we can get centralised bridge to work that’s great you know. A centralised bridge is , it’s the same thing as like you know Binance is probably the biggest centralised bridge at the moment . You can withdraw to a different chain. So we’re going to get bridges that aren’t centralised. We’re also going to get cross-chain DEXES that aren’t native to one chain. Most of you probably know this by now, but it’s coming and last you know I talked about the problem, but we’re going to get cross chain governance. It’s just coming and I’ll talk about how Tellor’s solving that at the moment. So okay! So the first piece is bridges, bridges are just oracles guys. I kind of talked about this before. If you have a bridge this is for those of you that don’t know how bridges work. You deposit some token on Ethereum into a smart contract. An oracle goes over to some other chain. Let’s call it Avalanche and it says : “Hey! Selena deposited her token on (in) our Ethereum smart contract and they would mint the token. That token that Selena gave you or paid you with and deposit it into that same smart contract burn it and then the oracle would verify that: It was burned and unlocked that for the owner over on Ethereum that’s all a bridge is. It’s just really-really hard to do. Especially in a fast way. Mainly, because what happens is if you have a whole bunch of bridge assets, basically you have one smart contract on Ethereum, that’s holding a whole bunch of funds. It’s like the giant honeypot and then you also have minting functions for basically minting value over on this other chain. So it’s they make for these really-really nice targets. So anyway bridges , if you want decentralised bridges you’re just going to need decentralised oracles. That’s the only function that’s missing here. “Where do you get decentralised oracles?.” People are building them, so that’s what we do. Other people are starting to get on board as well. You don’t need to settle for just trusting some centralised exchange or some one party to be your bridge. Cross chain taxes, so this is kind of in a similar vein as bridging. (But how do you) There’s sort of two ways to trade digital assets between chains. So the first one kind of like I was talking about you would just bridge it and then trade it. SO if you wanted to go trade on Polygons AMM you would first bridge your token over to Polygon, and then trade it. The problem is you know well now you have fragmented liquidity, and then you have some validator problems if you have these gigantic honeypots. But the next solution is kind of a cross-chain decks, and I guess thank you for all of these thumbs up and whatever else are flying on the bottom of the screen! Yeah, cool! So, the next way to do it is just bridge the data, so you could have a pool of one funds on Ethereumand pool of another funds on Polygon, and you could just bridge the orders so you don’t need to actually move the assets back and fort. You just bridge the order and unlock it and now basically you would have single-sided liquidity pools on each chains, and then you just have the oracles pass them back and forth. So I put here there’s some example of these already up and running. So “What does it take for these things to sort of scale and move forward?.” ( And) It’s basically just more decentralised oracles you know. This is it. It all just gets back to the oracle. Problem in lot of ways (you know) it’s basically most of these cross-chained x’s at the moment they’re rather simple like contracts , but the harder part and the security part is building a robust decentralised oracle network. (And) Most of them would rather (you know) basically just centralised it for the moment and then that way you can sort of get up and running rather than actually trying to decentralise it and build it out that way. But yeah… So once you get decentralised oracles these things become almost trivial. Okay! And the last piece that I think is really the future, that’s really going to drive oracle demand is going to be a cross-chain governance. So right now we all sort of know that voting on chain is awful. Nobody votes on chain. It costs a lot of gas on the big chains, not to mention like WHALES a lot of times control it, but it’s actually just gonna get even harder. Because you know as we start doing these things where we’re bridging coins on multiple chains.
That’s not going to be good, because now welll let’s say you have an on-chain vote on Ethereum. It actually doesn’t know about your balance of that coin over on Polygon or your balance on Avalanche. You’re just stuck. So (you’re not) you don’t want to have to bridge back the costs a whole lot of money so you probably just won’t even vote in the first place. Another thing so this is a really big problem for DAOS like us and other DOWS as well. Basically every time before we want to get the vote going , we have to g tell people get your coins off of centralised exchanges. You know take them out these custodial wallets, because they don’t vote. A) if they did vote they could just swing any votes, which is a giant risk, but they don’t vote anyway, which is awful you know. And the people it would be really nice I don’t know even if the custodian was holding your coin, if we could still identify it. That it’s your coin and you could vote on behalf of holding your coin and this would actually be really-really easy to do so. If any of you have actually deposited money onto coinbase a lot of times (like) you have your own address there, so if you have your own address there it would actually be really simple for them to put some metadata on that address, that would say: “Hey! This address belongs to this person.” Or this metamask address you could even put and then if okay, so now all of a sudden now we can link up. “ Hey! My coins are coinbase, but I actually own them.”. That would be really cool . You could do it in a decentralised way and then : “ How would you/ How would oracle’s work?”. Here! Well let’s say you have that on-chain vote as Ethereum. Now! Rather than you basically just signing with your mess signing . (You know) Your coins as these are my coins on Ethereum. You would go off chain to a service like Snapshot and they would be able to calculate off chain. Okay! He has this many coins on Polygon, this many coins on Avalanche, this many coins on Coinbase and we can add them all up, and this money on Ethereum we add them all up and we could just put that value on chain or we could add up all of those and the result and just put that result on chain. And this is actually something, so this is like an obvious show for a project we currently are working on with Snapshot. So Snapshot is one of these services that actually calculates off-chain votes for you and then we’ll submit them on chain. You can do this. You can vote on one chain with your balance on other chains. This is super cool and then if we can get exchanges on board to actually sort of identify in, some sort of non-easy for them to censor way. You could easily vote with all of your coins on an exchange and you know if you could vote for free with all of your coins on any platform now. All of a sudden people might actually want to vote and it wouldn’t even be hard to get people to vote. It would be super simple, because all you would have to do is just sign a message. So, all right that hopefully I gave you guys a great rundown of where I see the space going. Basically we just need some decentralised oracle . So “What are decentralised oracles;Who are they at the moment?.” Basically current oracle’s the biggest competitor for Tellor. I always tell people it’s just centralised oracles. You know the vast majority of these bridges and all these pieces doing oracles (it’s just) they are multi-sigs trying to get people like you guys to care. To say : “ Hey we don’t want to use protocols that just use multi-sigs.” It will you know as we go into a bear market they’ll probably get hacked or rugged . So try and run away from those, but future use cases are always decentralised. You know if you look at the winners from the past cycle it’s the people that are actually decentralised and don’t sacrifice on that front. That are the ones that win. So you know (if) way back in the day (you know) people it was private blockchain or public blockchain and everyone you know back in my world I used to be a regulator here. In the US (it was) people were saying: “Oh! Private blockchains are totally going to be the winner.”… and you know nobody uses a private blockchain. You’re like shunned , if you even say those words. You know same you move forward to like ЕОS or any of these other centralised competitors, Ethereum killers back from years ago, none of them win . They all sort of get washed away and you’re just going to see this trend continue. You know the people who are actually decentralised, who don’t sort of sell out to try and get some buzz and small time usage. These are going to be the people that win and we sort of have that same philosophy with oracles. So I know I’m kind of running up on time, so just а couple more slides. So kind of sum up like : “Why oracles will be bigger than your L1?” I have to do this so we are getting more chains. So this is the rundown. More chains are coming . They’re not going to stop. We’re not moving to one chain. More chains means you’re going to need more oracle usage, because people are going to want to connect these things. More security is going to be needed. So basically more value. So if you assume that each of these cycles is going to get bigger. There’s going to be more and more value locked up so that means you’re going to need more and more value in your oracles to protect, and lastly you know if you have more on chain activity more voting, you have more people wanting to take place. Participate in whether it’s DOWS, whether it’s you know LPING on different chains you’re gonna need more oracle usage. Basically you can think of oracles as these you know off-chain computers that move these things from chains of chain. So kind of my last slide I’ll tell you guys : “How Tellor works?” So, “How would a decentralised oracle work?.” This is (the) obviously the Tellor model. There are some other ones you can use, but this one’s pretty good. Anybody, any one of you can come and you can be what’s called a reporter on Tellor. So you simply stake some of our tokens not too many just a hundred of them on. Say we’ll say we’re up on any EVM chain. You can go for instance on Polygon, you can stake some of our tokens and then you can report any data on chain. So Selena could come and she could say: “Hey! I’ll pay whoever put I’ll pay 5 Dollars to whoever puts the price of Bitcoin US Dollar unchained.”… and whoever staked can then go and it basically becomes a race. There’s actually a lot of MEV going on with Tellor right now. Comes a race to see who can put the price of Bitcoin on chain fastest for that 5 Dollars. Once it’s on chain anybody can check or dispute it. So they can say: “Hey! Did that reporter lie?.” Most likely they didn’t lie. They would, because they know what’s going to happen, but anyone so Selena, you, me, any of the other reporters would check (okay) that’s an actual valid price of Bitcoin. If it’s not you pay a small fee and you dispute it. It goes to a two-day vote of token holders to determine, if she/ if it’s a valid price or not and that’s super simple. Anybody can participate it’s Crypto economically secure and you as a reporter even or you as a user. Let’s say even if somebody gets disputed somebody else would just put it on chain again for the 5 Dollars. It’s not like it would be any skin of your back and it’s just a nice simple way that it can work. (And) This sort of model to where anybody can participate. (where anybody can) We don’t have to approve your data. We can do any kind of data. We can do it on any network, as long as you’re willing to pay for some reporter to put it on chain and risk getting slashed. You can get the data and it’s sort of open permissionless piece. That’s really what separates a decentralised oracle from centralised one. Can anybody participate and can anybody censor what kind of data you can get.
So anyway I think that’s just about time. So thank you guys for listening! Looking forward to answering some questions! So thanks everyone!
Selina Peerbux: I know! What a great talk! I was really-really looking forward to that and I definitely wasn’t disappointed. I particularly liked how involved I was with that talk. I did a lot in there. Well you said (yeah) you have a conflict of interest. So I’ll just run through a couple of questions. I know we’re a little tighter time, but we can spill out onto the break. I’m sure people want to know.
So the first one’s from Rebecca Swift, which is: “What are the security issues that are posed by bridges?.”
Nick Fett: Yeah!These are huge . So I mean bridges like I kind of gotten into it a little bit in the talking, that you’re are creating these giant honey pots. You know basically, if you’re running a centralised bridge most of the time the bridge providers can run away with a lot of money or you know have an easy way to kind of fake some of those issues. So that’s probably the main issue. You know the other issue that a lot of people don’t realise with their bridges is that, if you have a centralised bridge, even if there’s some Crypto economic or Cryptographic way that they can’t steal your funds, because there’s not signatures there. They could actually just stop running. So this is a big oracle problem too you. You know if whoever your oracle is (you know) if it’s a centralised oracle and they die or their servers go offline you actually just can’t move your coins back and forth. So you don’t get your data, so the censorship issue even if they can’t just outright steal your coins or there’s security issues. The fact that they might just be able to censor you is huge. That’s why I’m actually I like to push a lot more for trying to keep the value native on each chain. So you know you could say like if you want to bridge Ethereum over Polygon it’s probably just a better idea to like sell your ETH on Ethereum and buy MATIC over on Polygon and then you’re transferring say the Dollar value and you know as a stable coins get more better you’re transferring the Dollar value, but you are not sort of creating these giant pools. So…
Selina Peerbux :Awesome! Then we got another one from Flavia and she says: “How do you ensure the authenticity of data questions?”.
Nick Fett: Well… I mean we don’t sort of ensure anything as far as like you know people are willing to get disputed and lose money. So it’s more of like a Cryptoeconomic way, but (you know) the big thing is like the reporters wouldn’t actually submit until they sort of know. This is another piece just depending on the chains. The hardest piece is ensuring the authenticity, because a lot of times it’s not instant. So most of you know ( like if you know, even like) if you deposit Bitcoin on Coinbase or try and send them off because there could be fork in the chain. So you usually have to wait six confirmations and the same if you deposit any sort of coin onto a centralised exchange. They make you wait because there could be forks or attack 51 percent attacks. So usually just depending on the security of the chain and how sort of verifiable it is you would have to just wait different times probably (to) before you would push that dana across the chain. So I think that answered it.
Selina Peerbux: Yeah! Yeah I would say so. And we have time for just one more. I’m gonna go with this one from Abigail: “What entity owns lie 50 or more of the notes?”. That would be centralised. Right!?
Nick Fett: Not necessarily. You know like I could say maybe for me I think she’s talking about Tellor. I would assume maybe or like of chains in general. I don’t know. Like I know of chains it would just depend on what chain you’re talking about. Like sometimes it’s a-okay sometimes it’s not.
Selina Peerbux: Just general, so I think it would be just chains in general.
Nick Fett: Yeah, I mean. So it depends you know. Sometimes chains have much better security to where you would need to compromise (you know) two-thirds of the validators or even more. I would depended on what chain you’re talking about I think. Usually the bigger thing like make sure that whatever chain you’re doing anyone’s allowed to be a node or a validator. That’s usually a good rule of thumb to not begin centralised. It’s just anyone’s allowed to sort of participate in it. Rather than a principle. Yeah a specific number.
Selina Peerbux: Okay! Great! Well, that was absolutely amazing. I thoroughly enjoyed that! Thank you so much for joining with us today Nick! It’s been so great having you on our stage and thank you everybody, to the audience. Some really great questions in there. So, yeah! Great! Awesome! And enjoy the rest of the show guys!
Nick Fett: Thanks!
Selina Peerbux: You for just one second, I’ve got a quick video to show you, but Nick thank you so much for your time today!
Nick Fett: Yep! Thanks!
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